Just joined and about to CCA PRA Group

[Suseka]

Hello.

I've just joined the forum and have spent a bit of time looking around the various main and sub-forums on DMPs and UEs. This site has such a lot of information and so it's a bit mind boggling, but incredibly useful. Anyways - I'm not sure if this is the right place to put my first post up -but as the title says, I'm about to embark on the CCA journey and will be sending off the helpful template letter I found in the 'template letters' sticky. I've been in a DMP for a little over 4 years and have dutifully held up my end of the bargain and have paid most of my debts - currently down to 8 out of what was 14 creditors and a whopping £85k worth of debt (eek).

It's been a tough ride and I've probably paid back far too much, far too quickly - but we live and learn. It's only recently, having dragged myself out of a period of depression that I've decided to take back control of my life and from this month on I intend to manage my own DMP. I've had lots of support from forum buddies on another site that has given me confidence to do this. Until now I was completely unaware that debts could be unenforceable and whilst, as I read in a post about the T&Cs on UEs and how AAD supports folks, I'm not trying to avoid paying what I owe - I think now is the time to strike back a little.

Of my 8 remaining creditors, 2 are about to end -which leaves me with 3 accounts that are now held by Link Financial and 3 that have been passed on to the PRA Group - all 6 were sold on/passed on around 2 years or more ago. Oddly 2 of the accounts with Link are not showing up on my husbands credit file as defaulted and his Noddle file status for those is simply marked 'OK". So my plan is to tackle the 3 with PRA Group first and see how that goes.

I will post up a diary in the 'diary section' so that people can see how I get on - if that's of any help to anyone, and will undoubtedly need advice from the good folks on here. I have one quick question and that is I've read on other forums that its best not to 'sign' the letter, just type the name, and best to use postal orders for the £1 fee (not a cheque - again re the signature caution). I read that some DCAs / Creditors have been known to 'cut and paste' signatures (the little tikes!) Is that true, or just hearsay, or does it simply not matter?

Wish me luck!

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

which leaves me with 3 accounts that are now held by Link Financial and 3 that have been passed on to the PRA Group - all 6 were sold on/passed on around 2 years or more ago. Oddly 2 of the accounts with Link are not showing up on my husbands credit file as defaulted and his Noddle file status for those is simply marked 'OK". So my plan is to tackle the 3 with PRA Group first and see how that goes.

I look forward to seeing your diary - in particular those three debts which are currently with PRA.

Here's something to read that may help you see what issues we could be looking at with those ones especially if they started out as MBNA credit card accounts >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED v DIANA MAYHEW - WIN

I have full knowledge of this case since I was the Defendant (Plan B is Diana Mayhew).

I was also the "Client" of Joanna Connolly Solicitors where I currently work. How ironical.

I have no shame in being taken to court for a debt which arose with MBNA when I was in "financial chaos" at the start of the Credit Crunch which was caused by the banks not me or any of you other debtors out there.

But I didn't personally owe PRA any money (as agreed by Recorder Bellamy) and that was the reason I decided to fight this case.

I wasn't only doing it for me, I was doing it for all the other debtors who've been served with claims for a MBNA debt which travelled the same assignment route as mine.

I was also doing it because the documents produced by the Claimant needed forensic examination. As Jo has said the court found them irredeemably unenforceable. There were two claims for two accounts and both credit agreements failed the test in court.

It was a win for the consumer not just me.

PRA have said that they will not be appealing the judgment.

Di x

Di

[Suseka]

Thanks Di

Makes for very interesting reading -in my case the PRA Group were assigned debts that were Barclays Bank Loans - and the Link Financials are all originally Barclaycard, albeit my other half tells me one of them was originally an Egg card. Most of the debts we still owe are Barclays related and it beggars belief that they were quite happy to keep offering my hubby loan after loan, card after card. But that's another story. I will definitely put up a diary/blog type post so people can see how we get on. Have decided today to CCA the Link accounts.. as they say ' in for a penny, in for a pound).

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

in my case the PRA Group were assigned debts that were Barclays

In which case read this Tweet by Joanna Connolly.

We beat PRA in court yesterday on an ex-Barclays (Egg) debt which had "assignment" issues

Here's the link but the this forum has had a recent upgrade so I'm struggling to handle the new technology > https://twitter.com/connolly_joanna?lang=en

Joanna Connolly @connolly_joanna

Defeated PRA again today in a £14,000 Egg/Barclays assignment CCA case in Bath County Court.

10:10 AM - 30 Jun 2017

Di

PS my link to Joanna Connolly's tweet didn't work so I'll try again tomorrow.

[nightwatch]

Welcome aboard, hope we can be of help to you xx

[Zeppelin]

Welcome and the very best of luck with everything. Not that you'll need luck as this site and forum are the very best source of comprehensive help and expert guidance you'll ever find.

[Suseka]

Hello again and thanks for the welcomes.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the PRA Group -but at the same time I sent off CCAs for 3 accounts held by LINK (former Barclaycard CC debts). Although they never actually acknowledged receipt of my letters, several weeks on they've replied with various pieces of paper (what looks like reconstituted forms as well as T&Cs etc.). So I guess I should start a diary following the prescribed format -but so as not to waste anyone's time - is there much point getting you good folks involved as all 3 accounts are post 2007 and therefore easier in many ways for DCAs or their agents to 'prove' enforceability. I've got to say that although I've read lots of the stickies on the subject - I don't quite get how a copy of an unsigned agreement can be enforceable irrespective of its date - but I know there's a lot more to it than my simple understanding of the legal side of things.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I'm still waiting to hear back from the PRA Group -but at the same time I sent off CCAs for 3 accounts held by LINK (former Barclaycard CC debts). Although they never actually acknowledged receipt of my letters, several weeks on they've replied with various pieces of paper (what looks like reconstituted forms as well as T&Cs etc.). So I guess I should start a diary following the prescribed format -but so as not to waste anyone's time - is there much point getting you good folks involved as all 3 accounts are post 2007 and therefore easier in many ways for DCAs or their agents to 'prove' enforceability. I've got to say that although I've read lots of the stickies on the subject - I don't quite get how a copy of an unsigned agreement can be enforceable irrespective of its date - but I know there's a lot more to it than my simple understanding of the legal side of things.

You won't be wasting anybody's time asking for advice with those three debts.

Just because an account was opened after April 2007 that doesn't mean it's not 'unenforceable' which can be for a multitude of other legal reasons such as assignment issues, bad Default Notices (s.87), lack of serving annual Notice of Sums in Arrears (s.86), a reconstituted credit agreement which is not 'honest and accurate', and so on.

Read this thread about how to get started on your Diary > https://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/for...-read-me-first

Make a separate post for each debt using this format:

• Type of account (credit card/loan)
• Date commenced (ideally before April 2007)
• Approx balance
• Date last paid (approximate date you last made a FULL payment)
• Are you on arrangement or not paying
• Status (default/in arrears/up-to-date)
• Account owner (who is writing to you, a DCA or the lender)

I look forward to helping you

Di
PS still nothing from PRA ?

[Suseka]

Thanks Di and apologies for my tardiness in replying to your response. I've had a few personal issues to deal with and have been absent from various forums for a wee while. Anyways, PRA have contacted to say they are unable to obtain the relevant documentation so have said that those debts are 'currently' unenforceable. They are obviously keeping their options open with the use of the word 'currently' and the letters also went on to say that even though they are deemed unenforceable they will still contact us for payment. With that said they've not sent anything about making an arrangement to pay since.

Link are being really awkward, by not replying to letters sent. Having had a closer look at the paperwork they returned to us although the letters stated a reconstituted copy of the agreements were enclosed, none were. So I have written twice now telling them that and they seem to be ignoring those letters and instead are sending the standard 'you are behind with your payments, please call us etc and so forth'. They've also now started calling my husband's mobile number - which is a bit irritating. Anyway, I'll do as you suggest and set up a separate post for each of the three Link related accounts and will appreciate any advice given.

To be honest I just want this all sorted now because I have other more pressing issues to attend to and this hanging over my head isn't helping. I guess some might say to just pay them then - but I'm reluctant to do that when they've been so difficult.

[Roger]

Di set out the Diary template in her entry at #8
https://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/for...86#post1504186

The AAD Diary with dates helps you take control and the MODS with advice.
By keeping a diary and filing correspondence in date order! as sent (with evidence of posting) and received (with the envelope and dated when delivered!)
Is the perfect foil to Link!

Do not exchange letters with DCA's because you may well be acknowledging the Debt and restarting the Statue Bar date!!
Ignore Link until or unless their communications become threatening. Simply make a note of the date and time of Phone Calls, SMS. emails etc.. so that you have a complete record.

Even if Link had sent a S.78 it doesn't follow that it would be Enforceable!!

In the absence of a S.78 CCA then these Debts are Uenforceable I hope you have stopped paying them!

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

PRA have contacted to say they are unable to obtain the relevant documentation so have said that those debts are 'currently' unenforceable. They are obviously keeping their options open with the use of the word 'currently' and the letters also went on to say that even though they are deemed unenforceable they will still contact us for payment.

Link are being really awkward, by not replying to letters sent. Having had a closer look at the paperwork they returned to us although the letters stated a reconstituted copy of the agreements were enclosed, none were. So I have written twice now telling them that and they seem to be ignoring those letters

I wouldn't keep reminding Link that they've not complied with your CCA Request. That's their problem not yours I'm pleased to say

PRA appear to have done what the FCA says they should do (make you aware the debt is unenforceable) in their Handbook CONC 13.1.6 here >

https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/13/1.html

Di

[Suseka]

Thanks both Di and Roger - yes, I'll get all my letters, paperwork etc out at the weekend and start a diary following the steps provided I have stopped paying both Link and PRA and did so at the point I sent off the CCA request, so they've had no money from me since last August. I will stop reminding Link they've not replied and post up in the diary a summary of what I received in case on further inspection by more experienced folks it turns out they have complied. I know there is someone on here 'Niddy'? who reviews paperwork, so will wait to see if I need to scan and send stuff across for review. Again thanks, it's really helpful to get advice on this and I find the legal stuff quite daunting and confusing at times.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I find the legal stuff quite daunting and confusing at times.

That's exactly what debt purchasers want you to feel (that the legal stuff is daunting and confusing).

If you find something daunting then ask a question.

We like questions

Di

[Suseka]

Hello... me again.

I'm jumping back on this thread to update regarding CCAs. Three were sent for accounts held by PRA (returned UE) and three with LINK who are being somewhat difficult. So, I am going to need some advice with those, they've sent paperwork that they claim proves the accounts are enforceable. What's the best way do to that - get advice that is? Is it best to set up a diary, following the preferred template / format first. Also I know 'Niddy' is the person who checks these things out but I don't know how to send the information -and there's an awful lot of paperwork (LINK sent). If someone could help me with getting things started the right way for this forum I would be most grateful and I'll sign up as an AAD+ member

[The Tech Clerk]

webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk send the CCAs not redacted = no blanking out he is Registered